Durbin the Dummy
--posted by Tony Garcia on 6/21/2005
Those who don't know history...
I have been waiting for a while to comment on Mr. Durbin's comments. There has been much acrimony, lots of howling and a lot of wagon-circling. Both sides of the issue (defending calling our troops Nazis vs. anger for slandering our troops) are wrong for various reasons. I'm going to try not to rehash the same boring commentary and give you my (hopefully) somewhat unique perspective. I am verbose though...sorry.
First the comment.
"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings,"
So, what is it the Mr. Durbin claims is so bad?
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ..... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
I will examine those in a bit, but that is what Mr. Durbin is claiming is like Pol Pot of Cambodia and Nazis of Germany and the Gulag of Russia.
Let's look at what they did.
Pol Pot's regime was extremely harsh on political dissent and opposition. Thousands of politicians and bureaucrats were killed, while Phnom Penh was turned into a ghost city with many dying of starvation, illnesses, or execution. Landmines, which Pol Pot praised as his "perfect soldiers," were widely distributed around the countryside. The casualty list from the civil war, Pol Pot's consolidation of power, and the invasion by Vietnam is disputed.
How many? For Pol Pot's regime alone estimates are as high as 3.3 million. This includes the murder of political dissidents. If Bush and his military were truly comparable to Pol Pot (as the left continues to claim) then all the wackos with pictures of Bush in crosshairs on their websites would be killed...people like Durbin and Dean would be dead. Since this is not the case such comparisons are more drama and less beneficial to the healthy discourse of a democracy.
Let's see, rap music (some of it is torturous, but only in a cultural sense), being chained and being subjected to hot and cold (not really extreme hot & cold)...those are Gulag-like conditions?
The Gulag conditions were the definition of torturous.
Extreme production quotas, brutality, hunger and harsh elements were major reasons for Gulag's high fatality rate, which was as high as 80% during the first months in many camps.
Production? What kind of quotas?
Logging and mining were among the most common of activities, as well as the harshest. In a Gulag mine, one person's production quota might be as high as 29,000 pounds (13,000 kg) of ore per day. Failure to meet a quota resulted in a loss of vital rations, a cycle that usually had fatal consequences through a condition of being emaciated and devitalized.
...
In spite of the brutal climate, they were almost never adequately clothed, fed, or given medical treatment, nor were they given any means to combat the lack of vitamins that led to nutritional diseases such as scurvy. The nutritional value of basic daily food ration varied around 1,200 calories, mainly from low-quality bread (distributed by weight and called paika). According to the World Health Organization, the minimum requirement for a heavy labourer is in the range of 3,100–3,900 calories daily
There is by no reasonable means any justification for a comparison between the Gulag and our troops as both Mr Durbin and the drama queens at Amnesty International make.
The charge that the US troops (or the interrogation tactics) were anything close to Nazis is downright offensive and abjectly irresponsible.
Some of what the Nazis did is common knowledge. The Holocaust, the gas showers, etc. Euthanasia programs of the "less desireables" beyond the Jews, sterilization of those deemed unworthy of reproducing, experiments (often disabling or fatal)) on human subjects...the list goes on and on.
The terrorists being held in prison by the United States are themselves breaking the rules of the Geneva Convention in their fighting and should not be afforded the Geneva protections. But we have gone to great lengths to NOT endanger their lives.
These comparisons to Nazis and Hitler are baseless and render the spewings of those people worthless. Just calling them names as Mr Durbin did and as the liberals constantly do is mindless drivel. Give some honest and rational/logical support to those claims and you may get a dose of respect. Since Durbin does not warrant respect I have taken to calling him "Mister" instead of "Senator".
Here is where the right is wrong. If Mr Durbin believes his comments then he should stand by them. He need not apologize even if his comments are offensive as long as he meant his words.
Forcing an apology does a lot things, none of them good. A forced apology prevents us all from knowing his true feelings. A forced apology dilutes the weight and meaning of a truly repentant apology. A forced apology prevents people in the public from speaking what they feel. They should be able to say what they mean and we should be able to know what they believe.
Durbin not only said the remarks but later stood by them. Good for him for initially having the courgage of his convictions...a rarity among Senators.
"If this indeed occurred, it does not represent American values. It does not represent what our country stands for, it is not the sort of conduct we would ever condone ... and that is the point I was making. Now, sadly, we have a situation here where some in the right-wing media have said that I have been insulting men and women in uniform. Nothing could be further from truth,"
Even though I commend Mr Durbin for standing for what he believes I still condemn his beliefs for being wrong, uninformed and irresponsible. The fact is what he said WAS insulting to uniformed personnel.
After a lot of pressure Mr Durbin completed his betrayals. First he outright insulted the military. Then he betrayed his own beliefs. He apologized...well, it did take him a few fancy dance moves before he finally cried "uncle, I apologize."
We have already talked about why the comparisons are outright wrong. Now let's just talk about the accusations of "torture".
"...find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water."
Chained? Oh no. What a horrible thing to do to prisoners. The thing that the left has to realize is that we are not engaged in a summer camp rivalry. We are engaged in a war with a large group of people who are hell-bent on killing us and the remainder of those peoples silent about it all. This is a war where the very people we have captured would otherwise kill civilians. Like it or not, that is the reality. And chaining these people up, even in a fetal position and no chair is (1) nothing but restricting dangerous people and (2) is still much better treatment than the prisoners buddies treat our people. At least these Murdering Muslims still have their heads attached to their bodies. Get a grip.
"Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more."
Yeah, and the problem is what? From the way this is described the urinating and defecating on themselves is voluntary. The funny (sad) part is that there are people actually stupid enough to buy the very fact that soiling oneself is unvoluntary.
"On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold." I do not see the problem here. First they are prisoners that do not qualify for Geneva treatment. Second I have an air conditioner in my office. I control the power of it and have a lot of trouble keeping the temperature comfortable. Within my own office I get cold to the point of shivering and then too hot to the point of my sodas exploding. It happens very quickly in my building and the temps in Minnesota are not even the extremes that they see in Cuba.
"On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees."
Again...so what. Environmental control is difficult at best. With all of that said the prisoners shivering is still better treatment than (a) the Americans captured by the Muslims and (b) than the American troops at Guantanamo Bay. Get a reality check and then join society.
"The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night."
Self abuse is their own problem. I find it funny still that liberals actually think that this kind of stuff is the fault of the American soldier.
"On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."
Rap music being played too loud should be a crime. But that is just because of cultural differences. There is nothing in that sentence that is torture.
Mr Durbin is another person who is continually acting Counter to the American cause.
1 Comments:
I agree that Durbin's comments were irresponsible and extreme. Your response has some unsupported assertions of its own, though. It seems that you believe that the actions cited by Durbin are the only examples of abuse being carried out at Guantanamo. They're not. Prisoners are frequently beaten brutally by what is/are called the Extreme Reaction Force (ERF) for such minor accidental violations of camp rules as having two cups in your cell instead of one, and the kinda stuff Durbin described happens to Gitmo detainees on a regular basis during so-called interrogation sessions; these are not isolated incidents. (By the way, would you care to explain what you meant when you said, "there are people actually stupid enough to buy the very fact that soiling oneself is unvoluntary"?)
The biggest problem I have with your post is that you take for granted that these people are dangerous terrorists who are hell-bent on killing us all. Where are you getting that from? Ooh, let me guess, Ronald Dumbsfeld. Many of these people were captured in Afghanistan and Pakistan because some warlord or Northern Alliance member said they were helping the Taliban. What would motivate a warlord to hand an innocent person over to American forces like that? The bounty money that they got in return. The stories of the released detainees Shafiq Rasul, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and a few others are enough to cast doubt on Rumsfeld's oft-repeated assertion that the detainees at Gitmo are all dangerous terrorists. The findings from these cases of course don't mean that all detainees were unfortunate bystanders caught up in the chaos of the battlefield, but still, no charges have been brought against anyone, nothing has been proven, and the strongest supporters of Gitmo are the ones who vehemently continue to resist any outside review of what 's actually going on.
"...they are prisoners that do not qualify for Geneva treatment." Again, why do you believe that? Just because Rumsfeld said so? Do yourself a favor: learn to question some things that come out of his mouth, hard as it may be "in time of war."
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